Best Finishing Hole?

[Clive]

Clive, while par-5's may favor the long hitter, they also present the long hitter with more opportunities to hang himself. While the shorter hitter has not choice to to play the par five in three shots, the long hitter has the opportunity to play it in two. A well crafted hole could tempt that long hitter to try something he shouldn't, giving the advantage to the shorter hitter who is content to safely plod along.

The long hitter typically has an easy opportunity to play the par-5 as a long par-4.  Unless it's a TOUGH par-5 ... but that plays even more against the shorter hitter, who already had to settle for playing for birdie (at best) rather than eagle.

If the par-5 asked the long hitter to bring a 3W into the green, I could see a "something stupid" scenario.  But I very, very rarely see long hitters on Tour taking woods into par-5 greens.  I see them hitting irons a lot.  And that sucks if the hole is supposed to (a) be a test of a golfer's skill/mettle, and (b) give the short hitter in contention any chance of not getting beat come the final par-5.

(Bear in mind, I'm not talking about the generic long hitter -- I mean the long hitter with sufficient skill to be in contention.  FWIW, I think a short hitter has to exhibit better skill over four rounds to beat that same long hitter -- I think length is that much of an advantage.)

[JDerion]

Clive,

It's interesting that both of your posts refer to how Tour players attack a hole. Is that the best standard for assessing the merits of golf holes? (Maybe it is!) Still, we're talking about .000001% of the golf population here.

Is this a thread about finishing holes for elite players, or for golf courses in general (even the most prominent of which have amateurs playing them 51 weeks of the year)?

[stroh]

[Clive]

Clive,

It's interesting that both of your posts refer to how Tour players attack a hole. Is that the best standard for assessing the merits of golf holes? (Maybe it is!) Still, we're talking about .000001% of the golf population here.

Is this a thread about finishing holes for elite players, or for golf courses in general (even the most prominent of which have amateurs playing them 51 weeks of the year)?

Hell, I'll meet you at the station: is this thread about coming to 18 in a competition of some sort or just at the end of a round?  The whole notion of "under pressure" and "something on the line" implied to me some competition.  Assuming one player isn't getting blown out, then I assume the two to be of equal scoring ability.  And whether it's Tour players or club players, I still think a LONG hole favors a LONG hitter, basic golfing skills being otherwise fairly equal.

[Uisce Beatha]

I guess I'm the one to answer.  This is not a thread about Tour players.  They're ruining golf courses and equipment - they can't have my threads too.   

I don't give a fark about Tour players or even top amateurs to be honest.  I think golf is for and about 'the rest of us.'  The people at the top of the game have forgotten that.  It bugs me.

There's a big difference between even a 5 index and a 15 index though.  Enough to make this discussion interesting and everyone's viewpoint relevant.  I'm glad I started the ball rolling on it.  It's a great read IMO.
 
I submit the long hitter is more often a lower index than the short hitter.  Now we've all seen the gorillas who can hit it a mile in any direction and usually do.  I don't think the discussion is really about them.  It's about players of all different styles playing into different length/difficulty/style finishing holes.  Maybe we can't really say what is an overall best finishing hole given those stipulations but it's interesting to try.

On the other hand, the guy who starts a conversation doesn't get to dictate where it goes.  So you can tell me to piss off if you like and I'll gladly do so.   

[Fuzzy]

I voted tough par 4. Interestingly, my course has a tough par 5 that really doesn't favor the bombers unless they are pretty precise. Water left, tough rough and OB right, and bunker straight ahead at ~270/280. Need to thread the needle between the bunker and water to have a good shot at going for the green.

[Spanky]

Since we are post pics. Here is 18 of one of the courses I play. It is a par4 straight into the Texas prevailing wind. There is a small creek that runs in front of the green but it is a huge green. You just have to have enough club. Anything will land soft as you are almost always hitting into a strong wind. From the blue tees the spectacle bunkers are about 275. It is only 140 from those bunkers to the green. What makes the hole hard is the wind and club selection. The green is huge and has a minor tier but getting the right club is the trick.



And I am never to those bunkers most of the time.

[Dunk]

I'd prefer to play a tough par-5.  Being distance challenged, I have trouble with 450+ yard par-4's, but at least with the par 5, I still have a decent shot at a GIR and a birdie putt.

[Walfredo]

Late to the party but I agree on a tough par 4.  My in-laws private club is one of the coolest and hardest courses around. 

15th hole 450 yd par 4 with a ravine in the middle about 225-250.  From the ledge of it you have 200 yards uphill to the green.  My one par on that hole was more rewarding than any birdie. 

16th hole 200 yd par 3 water in front

17th hole 525 yd par 5 that is pretty open but uphill.  Can reach in two if the wind is cooperating

18th hole 440 yd par 4 think 18th at Sawgrass but this one has the water come in front of the green to and on the sides and back.  My one par on this hole again was better than any birdie I've ever made.

15 and 18 are holes I usually double so they really keep you on your toes.  Of course on a bad day they can make you want to quit golf.  Pretty much a classic finnish to 18 IMO.

[hobbit]

I went with the tough par 5 - but when I say tough I mean tough to birdie, with par being achievable by most.

A lot of the courses I like have such a hole to finish the round - Torrey Pines South, Whirlwind, the club I belong to, etc.

Take the 18th at my course - three options for your second shot:  1) if you hit a good drive you can go for it over the water, 2) the safe layup in front of the water with a 3rd shot over it, and 3) the longer strategic layup over the bunker with a better angle into the green.  Yes, option 1 favors the long hitters - no doubt.  But there are multiple ways to birdie a hole and that water risk brings bogey into play.

Last year I think I was over in 2 on 3-4 occasions.  But I was also in the water on 3-4 occasions.  Most of the time I like the strategic layup, but occasionally have to resort to the safe layup depending upon the drive.  Its having these options that makes the hole interesting to me.  Its not easy to birdie, it is easy to par - all setup by your decisions and approach shot.  It also makes a match interesting if it comes down to the 18th - all the choices become even more important.  Good stuff.