Alcohol Discussion.

[Aske]

trust me on this, i was in our local pub tonight (and this is FY move in week / grown up re-move in week)  .

most of these tards are not capable of responsible drinking.  that said, they're also perfectably capable of being drafted.  if so, let em get blasted.

[Clive]

So you guys are saying that 18 year olds have the (supposed) judgement to vote for the most powerful man in the world, but not when to have a drink or not?

I'm calling BS.

Consider the voter turnout of the under-21 crowd.  Now consider the turnout you'd get if you advertised, instead of a chance to vote for President, free beer with no legal consequences.

I think if you're old enough to pick up a rifle and die for your country, you're old enough to have a beer.

I was thinking about this more on the drive home.  While it's glib, I'm looking for the rational connection between the two activities.  The 18-yo in the Army is given a weapon designed to kill humans; he's taught to use it precisely for that purpose; he's rigorously trained to be as obedient as possible; and his actual carrying and potential use of that weapon for that purpose is, generally speaking, rigidly supervised and controlled by people he's been drilled over and over to obey.  The environment in which an 18-yo might drink in the US, were it legal, seems pretty much the opposite of that.

Another thought: a drinking age of 18 essentially means no alcohol in high school.  I'm guessing that nearly all of us who attended college drank before we were 21.  In three years of underage drinking, did anyone really have a strong fear of getting caught and punished?  I never met anyone who did ... so that was three years of underage drinking NOT being some illicit activity that we had to sneak around to do.  And there weren't too many moderate drinkers in college, IIRC.

[MFAWG]

rigorously trained to be as obedient as possible

Nope, try again. Rigorously trained, yes. Obedient as possible is a job for the Moonies, not the military.

[gleek]

rigorously trained to be as obedient as possible

Nope, try again. Rigorously trained, yes. Obedient as possible is a job for the Moonies, not the military.

Did you really mean "Moonies" or did you mean something else?

[Clive]

Jessep: Have you ever spent time in an infantry unit, son?
Kaffee: No sir.
Jessep: Ever served in a forward area?
Kaffee: No sir.
Jessep: Ever put your life in another man's hands, ask him to put his life in yours?
Kaffee: No sir.
Jessep: We follow orders, son. We follow orders or people die. It's that simple. Are we clear?
Kaffee: Yes sir.
Jessep: Are we clear?
Kaffee: Crystal.

[MFAWG]

MFAWG: Ever been to enlisted basic training?

Clive: No.

MFAWG: Attended a military academy, ROTC, or JROTC program?

Clive: No.

MFAWG: Done anything but watch Full Metal Jacket and/or From Here to Eternity and/or Sands of Iwo Jima?

Clive: No


MFAWG: Then how the *fudge* do you know?



You are taught to follow orders, and how to act in the absence of orders. In short, you're taught that you have responsibilities that go way beyond yourself.

YMMV.

[Clive]

Know?  Know?  I just state something and it becomes fact.  (Geez, you'd think people would know me after almost 30,000 posts.)


(That, and friends/family in the military.)

[MFAWG]

LOL...

You're overall point seems to be that 18 year olds are given weapons (up to and including thermonuclear devices) and allowed to use them only when closely supervised by "adults".

It's just not true.

[spacey]

I realize that the comparison between being sent off to war and being responsible enough to drink a beer is not a strong corollary. However, in my estimation, you're either an adult or you're not. Not every 18 year old can be trusted to make good decisions with alcohol, but not every 30 year old, or 50  year old for that matter, can be either.

College campuses are somewhat shackled in their ability to reinforce safe drinking behaviors because by and large most people in college aren't old enough to legally drink. The message to our nations youth is never "drink responsibly," it's always "don't drink until you're old enough." Knowing full well that 18 year olds, or 16 year olds who want to drink will figure out a way, and will probably not do it smartly, and knowing full well that there are just as many mature and responsible 18 year olds as there are 21 year olds, it seems that to deem someone an adult at 18 for all intents and purposes other than the consumption of alcohol is arbitrary and ineffectual.

If 18 is old enough to vote, old enough to enlist in the military, old enough to solely enter into a legally binding contract, old enough to go to prison, old enough to buy a firearm, etc., I think 18 is old enough to buy and drink some beer. If 18 isn't old enough to be trusted to make at least reasonable decisions regarding alcohol, and be held responsible for them, perhaps we should reevaluate whether 18 is old enough to vote, buy a gun, join the army, sign a contract, get married, etc.

[hobbit]

Trust/maturity - I did just as stupid and foolish things in my 20s as I did when I was 18.  I've never had an alcohol related incident (legally, nor one that resulted in injury - unless of course you include injuring ones pride) at either age.  I think us older folk tend to think 18 year olds are a lot less mature than they are.  I trust me at 18, why should I not trust others at the same age?

I guess I need to repeat myself.

I still believe we're placing far too little faith in our youth.  Give them the responsibility and they will surprise you.  You may desire to amplify the failures and mute the successes, but I choose to accept them for what they are - the failures and success of humanity, rather than those of youth.  My success and failures with alcohol had everything to do with my experience, not my age.

But I do like Spartans point - 19 seems to keep it out of the high schools (inconsistent argument accepted), can we compromise on that?





BTW, the above was written with a healthy buzz.....   and a designated driver.

[Uisce Beatha]

In three years of underage drinking, did anyone really have a strong fear of getting caught and punished?  I never met anyone who did ... so that was three years of underage drinking NOT being some illicit activity that we had to sneak around to do.

Possibly a Utah thing but...

Four underage possession of alcohol tickets.  The first when I was 18.  I wasn't drinking but was "in the area" and bundled with a contributing to the delinquency of minors citation and a night in jail.  (Up by the "B" in spacey-ville for the interested.)

Everyone I knew had multiple possession tickets.  Granted, we partied hard and we partied a lot.  But not far from what I must imagine is the norm in Pittsburgh.  Maybe Clive lived in a better neighborhood.

When I joined the military I forgot to tell them about one of them.  They found out during a background check and while in basic I was under fraudulent enlistment investigation.  Due to my fragile, tear 'em down and build 'em back up state of mind I was in mortal fear of jail for five weeks.  Basic training is tough enough mentally without that hanging over your head. 

I have a rich history of being caught and punished.

My kids will learn (are learning) an appropriate attitude toward alcohol and the laws thereof.  It's possible there will be a bit of civil disobedience involved.

[hobbit]

Just tonight, I may have just changed my mind about the maturity of 18 year olds 

[Blader]

We've already run the experiment.  Keeping it at 21  is "net net" better than going back to 18.

[Blader]

UPDATE:

Here's a pic of one of the College presidents who are advocating lowering the drinking age.