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florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]

 
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Blader
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2007, 11:08:28 AM »

If you read that article by Stephen Hawking on The Beginning of Time, you'll see he isn't as quick as the NASA guys to throw up his hands in defeat when considering the moment before the big bang and invoke an outside agency for all that came before.  You have to read it all the way to the end to get to the Big Idea he's proposing.

Here's the issue.  The standard Big Bang model says that time had a beginning at the moment of the big bang, but also states that just before the explosion, all matter is bunched up in an infinitely dense point called a singularity, where the laws of nature don't apply.

A situation, any situation, where the laws of physics break down is disturbing.  It means one of two things:  either God did it, or there is something wrong with the theory.   Even believers in a omnipotent supernatural being would have to admit there is a better than good chance a theory deduced by man would more likely than not be shakey.

So why not entertain a theory, or at least a modification of the big bang theory, so that it can allow for both a beginning of time, and fully functional laws of nature prior to the beginning of time?  Hawking thought about this and came up with the imaginary time hypothesis as a solution for the singularity conundrum posed by the big bang theory.

I don't pretend to understand cosmology and barely remember what physics I did learn, even though I did earn 'A' grades for 3 straight semesters of university level physics. 

But what I do possess is an intuitive appreciation for valid attempts at solving a problem of nature.   

Imaginary time, to my ear, sounds like a better hypothesis than the "God must've done it" hypothesis.  Even if imaginary time turns out to be a wrong solution, it keeps people on the track of considering that we probably haven't thought through all of the possible materialistic explanations for how the universe began and that it is probably much too early in the game to throw up our hands and invoke "theories" that begin and end with The Creator did it.
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Aske
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2007, 12:57:56 PM »

not stating i necessarily understand/think it is correct... but there is also at least some plausible thought involved in this as well..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce
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Aske
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2007, 01:02:14 PM »

My point is that (again, to my understanding) the Big Bang theory relies on an "it appeared" start and does not at all address from whence the matter of that nascent universe was derived.

Is it necessarily so that something has to come from somewhere/something else or that there has to be a beginning to everything? Why is it not possible that the "stuff" comprising the universe has just always been there? Maybe our way of thinking is a reflection of the limit of our cognitive abilities. Humans have a way of anthropomorphizing everything, and our brains have to apply the concept of birth and death of our own existence to other things. Perhaps the "explanation" of the universe's existence is beyond anything that we can comprehend or even imagine that we can comprehend (even if the clues were both observable and given to us). The explanation for the existence of the universe might be something we simply can't relate to. Maybe it would be like trying explain the concept of colors to a person who was born blind.

this is a very good point (and one which is almost certainly correct on some levels) and one of the central points in the decomposition of many religious views 
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Blader
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2007, 01:46:16 PM »

My point is that (again, to my understanding) the Big Bang theory relies on an "it appeared" start and does not at all address from whence the matter of that nascent universe was derived.

Is it necessarily so that something has to come from somewhere/something else or that there has to be a beginning to everything? Why is it not possible that the "stuff" comprising the universe has just always been there? Maybe our way of thinking is a reflection of the limit of our cognitive abilities. Humans have a way of anthropomorphizing everything, and our brains have to apply the concept of birth and death of our own existence to other things. Perhaps the "explanation" of the universe's existence is beyond anything that we can comprehend or even imagine that we can comprehend (even if the clues were both observable and given to us). The explanation for the existence of the universe might be something we simply can't relate to. Maybe it would be like trying explain the concept of colors to a person who was born blind.

this is a very good point (and one which is almost certainly correct on some levels) and one of the central points in the decomposition of many religious views 

As I understand it, the way the observable universe is organized physically indicates that time has a beginning.

No offense intended, but I don't particularly find as particularly satisfying the deeming off certain subject matter as too complicated to understand or relate to.  To me, that sort of reeks of mysticism.  I guess I'm arrogant enough to think that humans have the capacity to solve most any problem that they can conceive.

I really like that idea you have of trying to explain colors to the blind.  I think that would be a very interesting exercise.  It sounds like a difficult, but not impossible task.  The solution lies in the fact that color has a physical, material basis.  Color is not metaphysical.

I think trying to explain the concept of Omnipotence/God/Outside agency to someone who has NEVER been introduced to it, might be a far more challenging task.
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Aske
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2007, 01:56:11 PM »


As I understand it, the way the observable universe is organized physically indicates that time has a beginning.

No offense intended, but I don't particularly find as particularly satisfying the deeming off certain subject matter as too complicated to understand or relate to.  To me, that sort of reeks of mysticism.  I guess I'm arrogant enough to think that humans have the capacity to solve most any problem that they can conceive.

I really like that idea you have of trying to explain colors to the blind.  I think that would be a very interesting exercise.  It sounds like a difficult, but not impossible task.  The solution lies in the fact that color has a physical, material basis.  Color is not metaphysical.


time has a beginning , or time has a direction?

problems that are too complicated to understand-  there are countless things that even most genius human brains, let alone average human brains, can't solve  let alone understand the generalities of.  we can derive very good approximate models to solve analytically or solve these problems numerically with computers, but they still aren't exact and/or analytic solutions.   even then, many problems falling into this area are still not even computationally tractable with the worlds best supercomputers.  doesn't mean we need to invoke a mystical explanation for them- simply that we can't understand/solve them (at least yet).
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stroh
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2007, 01:59:06 PM »

Like how the *fudge* is Don Donatello still on tv.
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2007, 02:13:34 PM »

Like how the *fudge* is Don Donatello still on tv.

Donatello = Flying Spaghetti Monster/Mystical Deity of your choosing??
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2007, 03:12:11 PM »

My point is that (again, to my understanding) the Big Bang theory relies on an "it appeared" start and does not at all address from whence the matter of that nascent universe was derived.
Is it necessarily so that something has to come from somewhere/something else or that there has to be a beginning to everything? Why is it not possible that the "stuff" comprising the universe has just always been there? Maybe our way of thinking is a reflection of the limit of our cognitive abilities.
This seems to fly in the face of the very reason that man uses science to investigate his world.

If you read that article by Stephen Hawking on The Beginning of Time, you'll see he isn't as quick as the NASA guys to throw up his hands in defeat when considering the moment before the big bang and invoke an outside agency for all that came before.  You have to read it all the way to the end to get to the Big Idea he's proposing.
Haven't gotten to it yet, only because the link resolved to the "home page" for his lectures, and I'd already logged out of GH and didn't have the proper title to navigate my way to it.  I'll check it out, as well as the other one you linked, too.

Imaginary time, to my ear, sounds like a better hypothesis than the "God must've done it" hypothesis.  Even if imaginary time turns out to be a wrong solution, it keeps people on the track of considering that we probably haven't thought through all of the possible materialistic explanations for how the universe began and that it is probably much too early in the game to throw up our hands and invoke "theories" that begin and end with The Creator did it.
My approach is that, when at the hypothesis stage, "must" is not a word in the conversation.  One person can toss out a half-dozen interesting theories based on physics, none of which may currently be tested for validity.  A second person may toss out a half-dozen theology-based theories, each equally incapable of having its validity tested.  To the objective observer, at that moment, not one of the dozen theories is any more right or wrong than the others.


Ultimately, I've never been one to force a religious view upon anyone.  I've raised the positions counter to science more to show that, in rare cases, adherents of science appear to discount non-scientific theories more out of pro-science prejudice than because science has proven its own theory on the particular matter.  The question of where the matter came from that formed the universe is one such instance; the issue almost wholly lacks evidence for any theory, yet the religious accept a religious theory and dismiss scientific guesses out of hand, while the scientific accept or promote scientific theories and dismiss non-scientific guessing.  Many times, listening to people argue about unanswerable issues reveals more about the arguers than the issue.
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Blader
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2007, 03:17:40 PM »

I 'get' the joke

but there is a solution...he drives ratings...because people with Asperger's amuse us in much the same way we stop at the monkey cages every time we go to the zoo, hoping for a little poop fling action.

Aske:  As a scientist you should know by now that the most difficult aspect of discovery lies in posing the right question.

Of course, testing it is a whole other ball of wax.  If it becomes apparent we need new technology to answer the question, we go about inventing that technology.  But the hard part is the question.

The bottom line:  Our only limitation is our imagination. 
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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2007, 03:39:54 PM »

Ok, last one, and I'm done.  Promise.

The bottom line:  Our only limitation is our imagination. 

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Re: florida, non-stop stupid. [Politics/Religion]
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2007, 03:45:10 PM »



Aske:  As a scientist you should know by now that the most difficult aspect of discovery lies in posing the right question.

Of course, testing it is a whole other ball of wax.  If it becomes apparent we need new technology to answer the question, we go about inventing that technology.  But the hard part is the question.

The bottom line:  Our only limitation is our imagination. 

blader i misunderstood what you posted earlier- yes this i mostly agree with.
framing the right question the right way often greatly increases our ability to solve a problem.
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Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century.
--  Chimpy McFlightsuit, CEO of Bu$hco Industries of 'Merka
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