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Balance

 
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Uisce Beatha
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Balance
« on: August 02, 2009, 07:08:21 PM »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0802/neumand.html

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Prosecutors said the girl could not walk, talk, eat or speak, but instead of taking her to hospital, people surrounded her and prayed.

You know, God made doctors too.   Sad
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"If you're darker than a caramel, Reverend Al speaks for you." - Aasif Mandvi
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dystopia
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Re: Balance
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2009, 07:11:36 PM »

Yikes.  From reading that quote, I had been expecting a third world country. Sad
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MFAWG
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Re: Balance
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2009, 07:18:47 PM »

Does the state have the right to force treatment on a minor child over the objections of the parents on grounds religious or otherwise?

That's a pretty thorny question.

I'm sorry for what happened to that little girl, but I'm less than comfortable with what the ramifications could be if we decide that the state has that right.

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The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. -- Teddy Roosevelt
Uisce Beatha
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Re: Balance
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 07:20:34 PM »

Does the state have the right to force treatment on a minor child over the objections of the parents on grounds religious or otherwise?

That's a pretty thorny question.

I'm sorry for what happened to that little girl, but I'm less than comfortable with what the ramifications could be if we decide that the state has that right.

Good point.  Definitely two separate issues.  The legal side of things and then the core WTF dealio.
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"If you're darker than a caramel, Reverend Al speaks for you." - Aasif Mandvi
"Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man: no time to talk." - stroh
Uisce Beatha
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Re: Balance
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 07:46:47 PM »

Yikes.  From reading that quote, I had been expecting a third world country. Sad

You dyssin' Ireland?   Angry
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"If you're darker than a caramel, Reverend Al speaks for you." - Aasif Mandvi
"Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man: no time to talk." - stroh
gleek
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Re: Balance
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 07:50:13 PM »

Does the state have the right to force treatment on a minor child over the objections of the parents on grounds religious or otherwise?

That's a pretty thorny question.

I'm sorry for what happened to that little girl, but I'm less than comfortable with what the ramifications could be if we decide that the state has that right.

Witholding medical care is tantamount to child abuse. Could child abuse be protected on religious grounds? I don't think so. The state can force treatment. It's happened in other cases in other states. It's too bad that nobody found out about this girl's situation until it was too late.
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: Balance
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 07:57:21 PM »

Does the state have the right to force treatment on a minor child over the objections of the parents on grounds religious or otherwise?

That's a pretty thorny question.

I'm sorry for what happened to that little girl, but I'm less than comfortable with what the ramifications could be if we decide that the state has that right.

Witholding medical care is tantamount to child abuse. Could child abuse be protected on religious grounds? I don't think so. The state can force treatment. It's happened in other cases in other states. It's too bad that nobody found out about this girl's situation until it was too late.

In this case it's very black and white for me.  Severe medical condition absolutely requiring professional help.  That's not always the case.  Can't speak for MFAWG but I wonder where do you draw the line?  Poor dental hygiene?  Refusing to provide birth control to your child?  Both of those in crazy circumstances can lead to death. 

I dunno.  Above my pay grade.  All I know is that when a child is unable to walk, talk, eat or speak (btw, riddle me the difference between talking and speaking) you gots to supplement the prayers with emergency rooms.  Forget the legalities at that point, in my opinion those parents essentially caused a death*.

* Assuming story actually played out pretty much as reported.
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"If you're darker than a caramel, Reverend Al speaks for you." - Aasif Mandvi
"Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man: no time to talk." - stroh
Fuzzy
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Re: Balance
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 09:35:46 PM »

Story that has been playing out here this summer you may have seen in the national media:

http://www.startribune.co...lr=KArksUUUoDEy3LGDiO7aiU

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SLEEPY EYE, MINN. - A 13-year-old boy who once fled Minnesota to avoid chemotherapy will continue getting the treatments for at least another few months.

Brown County Attorney James Olson said a judge on Monday ordered Daniel Hauser to continue his current treatment plan for Hodgkin's lymphoma.

That treatment plan includes chemotherapy to shrink a tumor in his chest and alternative therapies preferred by his parents, including vitamin supplements and ionized water.

This spring the county went to court to force the family to provide chemotherapy to Daniel. In May, Daniel and his mother fled to California rather than go to court to discuss it.

Since they returned, Daniel's treatment has been under court supervision.


I agree with UB....above my pay grade. This is a very treatable/survivable illness. But alternative medicine might accomplish the same. It's just that you're playing with your 13 year-old child's life and I can't imagine doing that.


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gleek
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Re: Balance
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 11:07:38 PM »

Does the state have the right to force treatment on a minor child over the objections of the parents on grounds religious or otherwise?

That's a pretty thorny question.

I'm sorry for what happened to that little girl, but I'm less than comfortable with what the ramifications could be if we decide that the state has that right.

Witholding medical care is tantamount to child abuse. Could child abuse be protected on religious grounds? I don't think so. The state can force treatment. It's happened in other cases in other states. It's too bad that nobody found out about this girl's situation until it was too late.

In this case it's very black and white for me.  Severe medical condition absolutely requiring professional help.  That's not always the case.  Can't speak for MFAWG but I wonder where do you draw the line?  Poor dental hygiene?  Refusing to provide birth control to your child?  Both of those in crazy circumstances can lead to death. 

Independent of the religion angle, I think you can allow for a reasonable amount of latitude just in terms of availability and affordability of medical care and suddenness of the onset of an acute condition. Refusing professional medical attention for a girl that's showing the livelihood of a vegetable clearly wouldn't pass the reasonability test for most people. By "most", I mean people that don't have some kind of bias against doctors, whether it be due to religious persuasion or otherwise.

I dunno.  Above my pay grade.  All I know is that when a child is unable to walk, talk, eat or speak (btw, riddle me the difference between talking and speaking) you gots to supplement the prayers with emergency rooms.  Forget the legalities at that point, in my opinion those parents essentially caused a death*.

* Assuming story actually played out pretty much as reported.

This is a line that I'm not sure is so clear. If you believe prayer works, how do you decide when to abandon it and seek medical attention? In this case, insulin would have worked just fine without any "supplemental prayers". They weren't exactly praying for a severed limb to regrow by some miracle, and one would think non-miracle acts of God would be rather mundane and common. The irony in all this is that this delusional couple believed that their daughter died because they didn't have enough faith. The state could put this couple away for 25 years, and I have to wonder why their ministries aren't at least partially responsible for the death of this girl. The FTC can go after companies that scam people by selling penis pills, but can they go after a church that makes claims that are even more outrageous?
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Woman, open the door, don't let it sting. I wanna breathe that fire again.
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