stroh
Sleeveless Hoodie From: Impact Crater Springs, CA
Karma: 155 Posts: 16135
OfflineWe're doomed!
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2007, 10:24:28 AM » |
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Having said that, I think Walfredo is on with his statement. I guess making an already good hitter stronger makes his bat faster and thus gives him an advantage.
Does strength affect bat speed more than technique? At some point do strength and bulk cancel each other out in terms of swing mechanics? Did more muscle mass make David Duval a better golfer? I believe in a word yes. (I think David's biggest trouble is with Clinical Vertigo. I haven't heard that it has been resolved.) For Tiger, it seems to. If you take it in olf club terms. Yes. And that is the only thing that matters. Speed = distance. Period. As argued by a few eggheads on FGI.
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Walfredo
Straitjacket
Karma: 18 Posts: 2013
OfflinePaintin the town brown
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2007, 10:30:44 AM » |
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Having said that, I think Walfredo is on with his statement. I guess making an already good hitter stronger makes his bat faster and thus gives him an advantage.
Does strength affect bat speed more than technique? At some point do strength and bulk cancel each other out in terms of swing mechanics? Did more muscle mass make David Duval a better golfer? I don't think so. Every little league has the kid usually left handed and average to smaller size that can hit homeruns with ease. They have that Griffey, Bonds swing that is perfect in every way for supplying power with little effort. I think the golf swing is similar in that regard. Most of those kids don't even make it past college ball. Because baseball is so hard at that level. I agree with stroh regarding the recovery time of the body and the advantage steroids provide. But I too have a hard time writing off this accomplishment because of extra artificial testosterone. I also have a problem with Selig acting above the scandal as if he didn't benefit greatly from MLB players using steroids. And for creating the environment that made them so prevelant by turning a blind eye and counting all the extra revenues.
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For hither not, I am the stallion. Come fear, come love, I am the stallion. You know that I am the stallion, mang. I am, I am the stallion, mang. You know that I am the stallion, mang. I live, I walk, I am the stallion, mang.
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Aske
Lederhosen
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2007, 10:36:01 AM » |
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LMAO
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Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century. -- Chimpy McFlightsuit, CEO of Bu$hco Industries of 'Merka
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spacey
Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat From: Group W Bench
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2007, 10:43:28 AM » |
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I guess the issue I have is that it's all speculative. Given all the tangibles and intangibles that go into hitting a homerun, there really is no way of proving one way or the other that Bonds hit any of his 756 simply because of juicing. Even if we were to go back and count all the homeruns that just barely eeked over the outfield wall and said "see, that one wouldn't have gone out if he weren't juiced," there's really no way of backing it up. If the pitch, swing, ball rotation, bat position, etc. were exactly the same in every single case and the only variable were the juice, perhaps.
Don't get me wrong, I think Bonds is an asshat and I am not apologizing for him in any way. While I tend to take a libertarian approach to so-called substance abuse, I think Bonds set himself up for the exact scrutiny that is facing him now. His fault, he has no real beef. However, I think it's disingenuous to simply write off the accomplishment by saying, yeah but he was juicing. In a sport that is rife with cheating for the majority of its history, the unofficial policy seeming to be "it's only cheating if you get caught" I tend to believe that most records are technically "tainted" in one way or another.
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stroh
Sleeveless Hoodie From: Impact Crater Springs, CA
Karma: 155 Posts: 16135
OfflineWe're doomed!
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2007, 10:45:21 AM » |
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It seems we are are in complete agreement.
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Walfredo
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OfflinePaintin the town brown
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2007, 10:47:00 AM » |
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It sure does. Well, now what?
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For hither not, I am the stallion. Come fear, come love, I am the stallion. You know that I am the stallion, mang. I am, I am the stallion, mang. You know that I am the stallion, mang. I live, I walk, I am the stallion, mang.
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gleek
Flak Jacket
Karma: 107 Posts: 9511
OfflineE chu ta!
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2007, 11:01:38 AM » |
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It seems we are are in complete agreement.
Except for Mr. Asketerisk.
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Woman, open the door, don't let it sting. I wanna breathe that fire again.
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stroh
Sleeveless Hoodie From: Impact Crater Springs, CA
Karma: 155 Posts: 16135
OfflineWe're doomed!
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2007, 11:02:19 AM » |
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It seems we are are in complete agreement.
Except for Mr. Asketerisk. No one can verify that he was in the bar alone.
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Uisce Beatha
Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat From: In the Jar
Karma: 116 Posts: 7357
OfflineGet me the tank!
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2007, 11:05:14 AM » |
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It seems we are are in complete agreement.
Except for Mr. Asketerisk. No one can verify that he was in the bar alone. Someone always trots out The Grassy Jägermeister Theory.
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"If you're darker than a caramel, Reverend Al speaks for you." - Aasif Mandvi "Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man: no time to talk." - stroh
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Clive
Full Metal Jacket
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2007, 11:09:57 AM » |
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Disclaimer: not a baseball fan, don't follow MLB, don't really care either way about Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Ruth, or any of the rest of them ...
What little I know about baseball is that the season really grinds the athletes down. The best benefit I can see is that the steroids might keep one slightly healthier -- or more accurately, slightly less worn out -- in the second half of the season.
Granted, steroids can help the user build muscle mass. But muscle mass does not equal greater strength (something every martial artists discovers) or greater leverage. To get stronger, you have to work. And bulk does interfere to some extent with the swing, be it golf or baseball. I'd guess that it'd be hard to start out small and then bulk up -- seems like it'd be harder to maintain your swing as your body changed like that. A big guy who was always big doesn't have that challenge.
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stroh
Sleeveless Hoodie From: Impact Crater Springs, CA
Karma: 155 Posts: 16135
OfflineWe're doomed!
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2007, 11:11:02 AM » |
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If he was using The Cream, I ascertain, he was working alone.
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Aske
Lederhosen
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2007, 11:14:39 AM » |
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It seems we are are in complete agreement.
Except for Mr. Asketerisk. No one can verify that he was in the bar alone. surrenders
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Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century. -- Chimpy McFlightsuit, CEO of Bu$hco Industries of 'Merka
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Blader
Straitjacket
Karma: 21 Posts: 2075
Offlinevagazzling vajayjays since 1876!!
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2007, 11:24:47 AM » |
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I have an almost uncanny ability to read and understand the medical and scientific literature.. EVEN without personally benefiting from incredible gifted smartness that everyone recognizes really easily, like, for example being an ENGINEER.
So, there you have my credentials.
And on the basis of my credentials, allow me to speak with authority on this issue. Here is a summary of what exists in the medical and scientific literature that unequivocally supports the hypothesis that 'Performance Enhancing Steriods Actually Enhance Muscle/Athletic Performance':
If I went through that too quickly, please allow me to review that again:
So, there is NO GOOD SCIENTIFICALLY-DERIVED evidence that carefully administered androgens under well-controlled conditions in a male subject will enhance his strength, quickness, agility, recovery from exercise or injury, etc and so forth and so on. Indeed, they appear neither to cause any untoward effects
But the great unknown is this: The scientifically-designed studies to examine these problems do not, and cannot, mimic the illicit practices upon which the anecdotal legend of their chemical power is attributed. Take B*nds for example. The federal agents have apparently sequestered EVIDENCE that shows quite clearly that he has consumed, in due course, a lot of different *feces*, in so many different ways, upon a schedule so varied even homeopaths gaze in starry-eyed wonderment and proclaim, "IF ONLY!". It is just not possible to scientifically replicate such experience. And so one must leave open the door to the possibility that the c_ocktail of stuff these individuals subject themselves to may be the trick, not the individual components.
Now, my personal hunch is this: Your typical male with a well-functioning set of cajones, beginning around late puberty, has steady-state levels of androgens that are already "maximal" and sufficient to saturate all receptor proteins for androgens in his various tissues. Adding more androgens to this mix, illicit or not, has the proverbial effect of continuing to fill with water an already overflowing cup.
Your typical male does not exhibit a cyclic pattern of variation in endogenous **** hormone production, as does your typical premenopausal female. We get to a level of androgen production by the mid to late teens, and we pretty much stay there until we are well into our 70's.
So how does one explain B*nds' muscle growth?
Well, the record shows that after the 1998 season, he became obsessed with enhancing his performance, which included a completely new weight lifting and athletic training regimen. B*nds' was motivated to get big and strong, and would have been bigger and stronger irrespective of taking any drugs simply because he was working out more than he ever had before.
So, does this mean that B*nds' really didn't cheat?
No. He definitely cheated because his intention was to do something that, if not strictly prohibited by the then rules of MLB, was nevertheless considered "a cheat" for virtually all other elite sports with the possible exception of cycling. Everybody knows it is wrong to attempt to achieve enhanced performance chemically.
He did exactly what the bank robber does when he wakes up in the morning, packs his weapons, a stocking cap, parks his getaway car down the alley, and heads over to the local bank branch he's been casing for the past few weeks....but fails to rob it only because it is closed for a bank holiday. He had clear criminal intent and would have consummated the crime had he not been too stupid to notice it was President's Day.
Lastly, if any of the modern generation of anabolics do have positive effects in males, the scientific evidence for it exists in dusty old notebooks stacked in the backrooms of gymnasiums dotting the former East Germany.
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« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 11:30:02 AM by Blader »
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Uisce Beatha
Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat From: In the Jar
Karma: 116 Posts: 7357
OfflineGet me the tank!
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2007, 12:59:30 PM » |
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Call in the Staatssicherheit.
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"If you're darker than a caramel, Reverend Al speaks for you." - Aasif Mandvi "Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man: no time to talk." - stroh
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E-A-G-L-E!
Rich Corinthian Leather Jacket From: The Land of 10,000+ Slushy Ice Rinks
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Re: 756 Redux
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2007, 02:31:57 PM » |
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Did something happen?
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He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot
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